Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 10: Tonight Stars an Easygoing Egoist

ChrisPBacon

idola deus
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis the defending SM Circuit Champion
1650153230386.png


Happy Lunar New Year everyone! In celebration, the National Dex council has decided to suspect test everybody's favourite Lunar Lizard - Roaring Moon!

:sm/roaring moon:


The journey, or rather lack thereof, of Roaring Moon throughout National Dex had been nothing short of tragic. In Generation 9's opening week, Roaring Moon was quickbanned in a wave of council decisions to attempt to stabilize the tier, citing its strength in wielding multiple Tera types alongside Booster Energy's Attack boost to bypass its checks and become a devastating Dragon Dance sweeper. That was, however, before the discovery that Booster Energy gave a 1.3x boost to non-Speed stats instead of 1.5x, which considerably overplayed Roaring Moon's strength. Over the next few months, players cited its tameness in SV OU alongside National Dex's greater revenge killing capabilities to campaign for an unban until it received Knock Off in DLC1, granting it a much deadlier Dark STAB that bolstered its breaking potential to seemingly unreasonable heights. However, now that the metagame has simmered down post-DLC2, coupled with community support, we deemed it best to give Roaring Moon a second chance.

It doesn't take an established presence in National Dex to know that Roaring Moon would be one of the tier's deadliest sweepers. Its standard Booster Energy Dragon Dance set finds opportunities to set up against prominent defensive anchors such as Galarian Slowking and Heatran, alongside an exceptional Speed tier that eclipses most relevant forms of speed control, including Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Choice Scarf Kartana, and Iron Valiant. A standard attacking mix of Knock Off, Earthquake, and Acrobatics additionally leaves limited defensive counterplay, with potential checks such as Zamazenta, Clefable, and Great Tusk being ripped open by a boosted Tera Flying Acrobatics, which also prevents threats such as Mega Lopunny and Tapu Lele from OHKOing Roaring Moon. Tera is one of its greatest assets, with typings such as Steel, Ground, and even Dark able to expand its defensive and offensive reach. Alternatively, it can ditch Tera altogether in favor of Z-moves such as Dragonium Z to nuke would-be checks such as Landorus-T and Alomomola. Roaring Moon's movepool is rather expansive, with options such as Outrage, Iron Head, Roost, or Taunt all being able to flip their means of being answered. It also isn't limited to Dragon Dance sets; With a Choice Band or Choice Scarf, its spammable stinging Knock Offs and U-Turns and obliterating Outrages are highlighted, especially under Mega Charizard Y's sun granting it a makeshift Booster Energy to augment its power.

Despite these traits, it isn't all sunshine and Protosynthesis boosts for Roaring Moon. Although its typing comes with some positives, it leaves it weak to common attacks such as U-Turn, Zamazenta and Mega Lopunny's Close Combat, and the myriad of Moonblasts in the tier. Z-move sets particularly struggle with their inability to Tera, whereas it may otherwise have a reliance on Tera to find favorable matchups, leaving it and its team less capable of adapting to the game. This is exacerbated by its relatively meager physical bulk, which further gives it a weakness to common priority attempts such as Mega Lopunny's Fake Out, Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch, and Dragonite's Extreme Speed can all pick it off after chip damage, which can be inflicted from various forms of contact punishment. Without Taunt, Roaring Moon can fall victim to crippling from Toxapex, Heatran, Galarian Slowking and Alomomola while setting up whereas it fails to fully utilize its coverage with the move. While Choiced sets largely bypass these issues, they become heavily reliant on sun to break effectively, with Mega Charizard Y's limited sun turns and Torkoal's general obscurity making for inconsistent partners. Finally, while challenging, finding defensive counterplay is not non-existent; stall stalwart Dondozo alongside defensive buffers such as Skarmory and Alomomola match up rather well into Roaring Moon, while its reliance on Tera means most teams can afford to respond with a defensive Tera to win the one-on-one in a pinch.

All in all, Roaring Moon shapes up to be a deadly offensive threat in National Dex, with the tools available to clean through the tier, although maybe not being able to possess them all on one set. Despite its amazing speed tier, its unspectacular bulk leaves it vulnerable before setting up as well as against common priority moves, leaving it to resort to Tera to live up to its potential. What leaves to be seen is just how dangerous it can be with Tera, as well as how Z-moves impact it in National Dex's environment. Given the increasing support for a suspect test by the community, the council deems it best to give it a second chance in National Dex.

1703478860932.png

  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
  • The table for this can be found below:
    GXEminimum games
    8050
    80.249
    80.448
    80.647
    80.846
    8145
    81.244
    81.443
    81.642
    81.841
    8240
    82.239
    82.438
    82.637
    82.836
    8335
    83.234
    83.433
    83.632
    83.831
    8430

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ND9RAWR. For example, I could sign up as ND9RAWR Chris.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex ladder for this suspect test, and Roaring Moon will be legal throughout the entire suspect test.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The suspect test will run for approximately two weeks, lasting until February 25th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will open after 24 hours to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Here's a list of rules that we expect all posters to follow:
  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Council and the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokémon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokémon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokémon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it.
    • This is not the place to complain about the suspect process. Please PM Kyo or Kaede if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test.
Keep in mind that the outcome of our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Oculars

IT RLY DO BE LIKE THAT SOMETIMES
is a Tiering Contributor
Roaring moon isnt that crazy there was nothing ive seen on my sus test run that would suggest its broken, its a setup sweeper still walled by the same unawares as other strong phys sweepers, taunt sets to break those unawares lack crucial coverage. Moon has plenty of soft checks running around and genuinely isnt overbearing on the meta, I will be voting Unban. Moon has consistently proved to be fair and balanced in SVOU and doesnt really do anything here too absurdly different, if anything we have way more varied counterplay available. z moves can be strong but will never be a fraction as broken as tera is on every single mon ever. Id like to see a legitimate argument against unbanning moon that isnt just "defensive tera broken" yes tera is broken and a plague on our metagame but thats not a unique roaring moon problem. Moon will definitely shake up the meta and cause issues for do nothing flip turn/chilly reception teams but theyre going to have to adapt.
 
Roaring moon isnt that crazy there was nothing ive seen on my sus test run that would suggest its broken, its a setup sweeper still walled by the same unawares as other strong phys sweepers, taunt sets to break those unawares lack crucial coverage. Moon has plenty of soft checks running around and genuinely isnt overbearing on the meta, I will be voting Unban. Moon has consistently proved to be fair and balanced in SVOU and doesnt really do anything here too absurdly different, if anything we have way more varied counterplay available. z moves can be strong but will never be a fraction as broken as tera is on every single mon ever. Id like to see a legitimate argument against unbanning moon that isnt just "defensive tera broken" yes tera is broken and a plague on our metagame but thats not a unique roaring moon problem. Moon will definitely shake up the meta and cause issues for do nothing flip turn/chilly reception teams but theyre going to have to adapt.
I'd argue defensive Tera allows a wider pool of mons to check moon, namely Tera Fairy on various high def mons such as Arch, Pechurant, Garganacl, etc. all of which are more viable here than in OU imo (except Arch ig).

Personally, I think Moon is on the cusp of being broken in SV OU, but is relatively fine here. In SV OU, its Knock Off has virtually no real switch ins due to its high power + there being no hazard removers. Here, there is a far wider pool of Knock Off absorbers between the various Z-Move users, Megas, and stronger Fairies + the penalties for getting Knocked off are generally lower due to hazard control being more prevelant. Kingambit isn't in this tier, which is somewhat problematic as it is one of the better offensive moon checks. On the flipside, one of the more problematic elements of Moon imo is how good of an enabler it is for Kingambit. With there being no Kingambit, there isn't really much else its enabling. In SV OU, Moon is, IMO, mostly relegated to HO builds and sun, and I don't think much here is different to change the type of builds it finds itself on. What I did notice when laddering is that the traditional HO builds (think glimm + 5 brokens) is noticably weaker without Kingambit, so moon imo is moreso relegated to Sun, which is strong, but not anything too absurd from what I've seen.

When laddering for the sus, I did run into a few Roaring Moons, which were annoying and I did get swept by one, but this was moreso due to me giving it too many free turns to setup DD. This tier has some stronger priority options than in OU with the various Megas like Loppunny and Medicham, which should serve to curb Roaring Moon's sweeping potential. Higher Toxic and Scald Distribution also give Moon less setup oppurtunities than in OU vs some arbitrary targets like, say, Pelipper, Toxapex, or Landorus-Therian.

Overall, I need to face it more, but I am also leaning on the unban side here.
 
View attachment 603325

Happy Lunar New Year everyone! In celebration, the National Dex council has decided to suspect test everybody's favourite Lunar Lizard - Roaring Moon!

:sm/roaring moon:


The journey, or rather lack thereof, of Roaring Moon throughout National Dex had been nothing short of tragic. In Generation 9's opening week, Roaring Moon was quickbanned in a wave of council decisions to attempt to stabilize the tier, citing its strength in wielding multiple Tera types alongside Booster Energy's Attack boost to bypass its checks and become a devastating Dragon Dance sweeper. That was, however, before the discovery that Booster Energy gave a 1.3x boost to non-Speed stats instead of 1.5x, which considerably overplayed Roaring Moon's strength. Over the next few months, players cited its tameness in SV OU alongside National Dex's greater revenge killing capabilities to campaign for an unban until it received Knock Off in DLC1, granting it a much deadlier Dark STAB that bolstered its breaking potential to seemingly unreasonable heights. However, now that the metagame has simmered down post-DLC2, coupled with community support, we deemed it best to give Roaring Moon a second chance.

It doesn't take an established presence in National Dex to know that Roaring Moon would be one of the tier's deadliest sweepers. Its standard Booster Energy Dragon Dance set finds opportunities to set up against prominent defensive anchors such as Galarian Slowking and Heatran, alongside an exceptional Speed tier that eclipses most relevant forms of speed control, including Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Choice Scarf Kartana, and Iron Valiant. A standard attacking mix of Knock Off, Earthquake, and Acrobatics additionally leaves limited defensive counterplay, with potential checks such as Zamazenta, Clefable, and Great Tusk being ripped open by a boosted Tera Flying Acrobatics, which also prevents threats such as Mega Lopunny and Tapu Lele from OHKOing Roaring Moon. Tera is one of its greatest assets, with typings such as Steel, Ground, and even Dark able to expand its defensive and offensive reach. Alternatively, it can ditch Tera altogether in favor of Z-moves such as Dragonium Z to nuke would-be checks such as Landorus-T and Alomomola. Roaring Moon's movepool is rather expansive, with options such as Outrage, Iron Head, Roost, or Taunt all being able to flip their means of being answered. It also isn't limited to Dragon Dance sets; With a Choice Band or Choice Scarf, its spammable stinging Knock Offs and U-Turns and obliterating Outrages are highlighted, especially under Mega Charizard Y's sun granting it a makeshift Booster Energy to augment its power.

Despite these traits, it isn't all sunshine and Protosynthesis boosts for Roaring Moon. Although its typing comes with some positives, it leaves it weak to common attacks such as U-Turn, Zamazenta and Mega Lopunny's Close Combat, and the myriad of Moonblasts in the tier. Z-move sets particularly struggle with their inability to Tera, whereas it may otherwise have a reliance on Tera to find favorable matchups, leaving it and its team less capable of adapting to the game. This is exacerbated by its relatively meager physical bulk, which further gives it a weakness to common priority attempts such as Mega Lopunny's Fake Out, Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch, and Dragonite's Extreme Speed can all pick it off after chip damage, which can be inflicted from various forms of contact punishment. Without Taunt, Roaring Moon can fall victim to crippling from Toxapex, Heatran, Galarian Slowking and Alomomola while setting up whereas it fails to fully utilize its coverage with the move. While Choiced sets largely bypass these issues, they become heavily reliant on sun to break effectively, with Mega Charizard Y's limited sun turns and Torkoal's general obscurity making for inconsistent partners. Finally, while challenging, finding defensive counterplay is not non-existent; stall stalwart Dondozo alongside defensive buffers such as Skarmory and Alomomola match up rather well into Roaring Moon, while its reliance on Tera means most teams can afford to respond with a defensive Tera to win the one-on-one in a pinch.

All in all, Roaring Moon shapes up to be a deadly offensive threat in National Dex, with the tools available to clean through the tier, although maybe not being able to possess them all on one set. Despite its amazing speed tier, its unspectacular bulk leaves it vulnerable before setting up as well as against common priority moves, leaving it to resort to Tera to live up to its potential. What leaves to be seen is just how dangerous it can be with Tera, as well as how Z-moves impact it in National Dex's environment. Given the increasing support for a suspect test by the community, the council deems it best to give it a second chance in National Dex.

1703478860932.png

  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
  • The table for this can be found below:
    GXEminimum games
    8050
    80.249
    80.448
    80.647
    80.846
    8145
    81.244
    81.443
    81.642
    81.841
    8240
    82.239
    82.438
    82.637
    82.836
    8335
    83.234
    83.433
    83.632
    83.831
    8430

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ND9RAWR. For example, I could sign up as ND9RAWR Chris.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex ladder for this suspect test, and Roaring Moon will be legal throughout the entire suspect test.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The suspect test will run for approximately two weeks, lasting until February 25th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will open after 24 hours to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Here's a list of rules that we expect all posters to follow:
  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Council and the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokémon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokémon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokémon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it.
    • This is not the place to complain about the suspect process. Please PM Kyo or Kaede if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test.
Keep in mind that the outcome of our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

Great music taste btw. Fits Roaring Moon like a glove.
 
I think :roaring-moon: should be unbanned. Apart from the fact that it does absolutely nothing in NatDex Ubers, it don't think it's broken here. Strong, sure, but nothing overbearing. Dragon Dance + 3 Attack (Acrobatics, Knock Off, EQ) sets are walled by Unaware mons like :dondozo: and :clefable:, as well as defensive tera mons like Tera Fairy :toxapex: and :ferrothorn:. DDance + Taunt lacks the coverage needed, such as EQ, so mons like :toxapex:, :ferrothorn:, :archaludon:and :skarmory: can slow it down, and :dragonium-z: + DDance lacks the immediate power that :booster-energy: provides, as well as the option to defensively/offensively terastalize. Offensively, I don't think :roaring-moon: is too hard to handle, as long as you don't give it many chances to setup. There are plenty of Fairy types in the tier, such as :tapu-koko:, :tapu-lele:, :diancie-mega: and :iron-valiant: who all prevent it from coming in as easily without defensive tera, alongside strong Fighting types like :zamazenta: and :lopunny-mega:. Although a +1+1 :roaring-moon: is a threat, strong priority users such as :scizor-mega:, :medicham-mega: and :dragonite: can all threaten to revenge-kill :roaring-moon:, especially if it has taken significant chip damage.

252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 195-231 (55.5 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 160-189 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 96-114 (27.3 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 91-108 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 246-290 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 164-194 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO

Weather strategies, such as :pelipper: Rain can also threaten to RK :roaring-moon:, as :choice-band: :barraskewda: can OHKO :roaring-moon: with Close Combat, and :swampert-mega: can 2HKO with Ice Punch. On :charizard-mega-y: or :torkoal: Sun teams, there are opportunities to burn :roaring-moon:, cripping it. Tera Steel :great-tusk: can take on :roaring-moon: as well, especially if it's used :booster-energy: itself, 2HKOing with Ice Spinner, or OHKOing with Close Combat. Although she's niche, :lilligant-hisui: can outspeed :roaring-moon: and OHKO with Close Combat or 2HKO with Ice Spinner in Sun. :steelium-z: :excadrill: can OHKO :roaring-moon: with Corkscrew Crash in :tyranitar-mega: or :hippowdon: sand teams, both of which are also soft-checks to :roaring-moon: defensively.

Overall, I think there are enough pokemon in the tier to reasonably check :roaring-moon: defensively and offensively. Although it is strong, especially after a Dragon Dance, getting to that stage is diffucult with :roaring-moon:'s poor defensive typing and medicore physical bulk. In my suspect run (which I will hopefully finish and not have to restart because of FREEZE of all things), I didn't see many :roaring-moon:, and with a HO strategy in mind, it wasn't that hard to beat, even in the late-game. Also, also, this might be an odd-comparison, but :roaring-moon: reminds me a lot of :iron-boulder:. They're both strong and great at abusing tera, but neither is unwallable and they have their checks/counters.
 
Last edited:

Fabriisse

formerly noobiste
I think that roaring moon is too strong for the ou metagame and should stay in ubers
The main set that causes problem is the taunt dd energy booster :

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Taunt
- Dragon Dance

The thing with this set is that it wins against 99 % of the metagame , why ? :
-Mola get crushed by taunt dd knock
-gliscor can't beat roaring without toxic
-Fairies, well if you tera, they get obliterated
-Zama gets cooked by tera as well
-and unaware mon can't win the battle, here some calcs :
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 177-208 (35.1 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The only ones that can beat in 1V1 situation roaring are koko and corvi and koko is not a reliable roaring counter and corvi i think that's generous to say that he counters roaring : +1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Corviknight: 262-309 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Furthermore i would like to shed light on the bulk of roaring 105/71/101 which is really good and his double type that allows him to not only tank hits and to be relativily easy to send on the field and making sweep quite often ( during my suspect i felt that roaring always suceed when it comes to do heavy damage and clean the opposing team). As for his speed , i mean 119 at +1 is quite hard to outspeed meaning only obscure scarf or priorities can handle roaring.

Also this set in sun omg :
Roaring Moon @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Outrage

literally no switch-in
(also this set is usable in any BO or balanced team as the progress provided by banded stabbed knock off and the fact that it can pivot quite easily make him monstruous)

One last set that i thought and that i'm testing :

Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Bug/Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe (some def invest can be useful)
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Taunt

using the great bulk to roost like an idiot while packig up the dd this set wins against a lot of defensive mons with taunt.
 
Strong, sure, but nothing overbearing. Dragon Dance + 3 Attack (Acrobatics, Knock Off, EQ) sets are walled by Unaware mons like :dondozo: and :clefable:, as well as defensive tera mons like Tera Fairy :toxapex: and :ferrothorn:. DDance + Taunt lacks the coverage needed, such as EQ, so mons like :toxapex:, :ferrothorn:, :archaludon:and :skarmory:
252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

unaware clef does not wall Moon. And it doesn’t threaten it back at all (ironically being useful for set up so moon can sweep after blowing through clef). Don is restricted to stall playstyles as its otherwise a very exploitable passive mon and thus is difficult to build around. Regarding other stuff, ferrothorn is the main difference in natdex and is pretty good into it, but we need more than one reliable mon into it defensively. Having to resort to Tera to check it is a very exploitable team building crack that Moon’s teammates can take advantage of, which is not ideal for an balanced meta. Also skarm does nothing to slow taunt moon down as it sets up and arch is rain exclusive.

Offensively, I don't think :roaring-moon: is too hard to handle, as long as you don't give it many chances to setup. There are plenty of Fairy types in the tier, such as :tapu-koko:, :tapu-lele:, :diancie-mega: and :iron-valiant: who all prevent it from coming in as easily without defensive tera, alongside strong Fighting types like :zamazenta: and :lopunny-mega:. Although a +1+1 :roaring-moon: is a threat, strong priority users such as :scizor-mega:, :medicham-mega: and :dragonite: can all threaten to revenge-kill :roaring-moon:, especially if it has taken significant chip damage.
the issue is you’re operating under the idea you can consistently keep it from setting up, which isn’t realistic given the many staples of the tier it can take advantage of for free set up. The natural speed tier makes it difficult to out offense as is, and post boost your only option is priority and that simply isn’t reasonable. You functionally have to walk on egg shells to avoid giving it set up, as a boosted moon is at worst cleaving a big hole.

speaking of priority, if you need significant chip damage to revenge kill it, then you’re not gonna be able to consistently rely on priori either. And that’s ignoring the possibility screens support which dampens the reliability of priori even more.




Weather strategies, such as :pelipper: Rain can also threaten to RK :roaring-moon:, as :choice-band: :barraskewda: can OHKO :roaring-moon: with Close Combat, and :swampert-mega: can 2HKO with Ice Punch. On :charizard-mega-y: or :torkoal: Sun teams, there are opportunities to burn :roaring-moon:, cripping it. Tera Steel :great-tusk: can take on :roaring-moon: as well, especially if it's used :booster-energy: itself, 2HKOing with Ice Spinner, or OHKOing with Close Combat. Although she's niche, :lilligant-hisui: can outspeed :roaring-moon: and OHKO with Close Combat or 2HKO with Ice Spinner in Sun. :steelium-z: :excadrill: can OHKO :roaring-moon: with Corkscrew Crash in :tyranitar-mega: or :hippowdon: sand teams, both of which are also soft-checks to :roaring-moon: defensively.
Yeah no. You’re not gonna argue having to rely on weather is reasonable, especially when its only really rain that is even consistently somewhat splashable. Sun is match up fishy and sand is bad. In essence, the counter play to roaring moon is not that extensive and the mon simply is too volatile a presence to be healthy for the tier.

also moon being bad in Ubers is irrelevant.
 
Roaring moon should not be banned. Roaring moon gets hard counter by Archaludon. An plus one, max attack, and booster energy (for attack) Roaring moon using earthquake does not kill an Archaludon with at least 200 in HP, 208 defense, and bold and Archaludon can kill back with a plus one defense body press. Also Archaludon has access to dragon tail effectively removing Roaring moon's only opportunity to sweep completely. Also Ferrothorn can Twave, gyro, or body press can severally injure Roaring without the need of tera. Another Pokemon that can beat Roaring is Iron Boulder. There is way too many counters for Roaring to be banned. My vote is DNB.
 
Roaring moon should not be banned. Roaring moon gets hard counter by Archaludon. An plus one, max attack, and booster energy (for attack) Roaring moon using earthquake does not kill an Archaludon with at least 200 in HP, 208 defense, and bold and Archaludon can kill back with a plus one defense body press. Also Archaludon has access to dragon tail effectively removing Roaring moon's only opportunity to sweep completely. Also Ferrothorn can Twave, gyro, or body press can severally injure Roaring without the need of tera. Another Pokemon that can beat Roaring is Iron Boulder. There is way too many counters for Roaring to be banned. My vote is DNB.
In no way is Arch a hard counter. It takes 74 min from +1 booster EQ which means that it can't switch in. Arch with 200/208 bold also has a chance to get 2hkoed by booster attack only earthquake, even after stamina. Also if the opponent has spikes up, which is common on Moon HO, Arch has a chance to get Ohko'd by +1 booster and if there are rocks + a layer of spikes then Arch is a coin flip to get Ohko'd. Revenge killers are not counters and Arch isn't even a good revenge killer. Also, Ferro takes 72 min from +1 tera flying acro while also losing hard to taunt variants, especially after they turn flying. Iron Boulder is just another revenge killer who isn't guaranteed to Ohko with CC without tera. Bringing in Iron Boulder on a Roaring Moon who can tera turns into a nasty guessing game between cleave and CC and if you guess wrong you just lose. Ban Moon.
 
While i haven't played that much on ladder except for farming reqs on many accounts( and failling), i did have to face Roaring Moon quite a bit on ladder and used it myself.I don't feel this guy is as broken as most people make it out to be,i still think it has no place in this tier yet.The Taunt/DD set is absolutely insane, u are able to just sit on so many mons like :clodsire: :gliscor: and even most lando sets.Taunt them as they toxic u, then tera flying as they eq u and they are forced to switch, giving u a free turn to set up or do whatever.That's how most of my games went with it tbh,moon was able to just sweep their whole team or punch a serious hole through it, letting my other mons pick up from where it left and finish the game.Honestly, on most of my games, it didn't pose that much of a threat as i was able to stop it b4 it got too crazy with the boosting, but it's still a threat, as even after 1dd that thing hits like a mf.I am almost done with reqs and i will be voting Do Not Unban, i think this tier is slowly starting to stabilize and freeing a crazy mon like Moon in here would make things worse.
 

Kyo

In Limbo
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
National Dex Leader
I finished my reqs a little while ago, so here's my initial impression of Roaring Moon. It's broken.
Seriously I don't think this mon is good for the health of the tier at all. I'm glad that Moon is getting its time in the sun (haha get it) with a suspect test. I'm always down for re-tests as I think it's part of the due diligence we need to take when tiering to achieve the best long term metagame. However, that doesn't mean that we need to actually go through with unbanning everything that is borderline enough to get that re-test. Last gen in SS NatDex we re-tested Tornadus-Therian and Dragapult very late into the tier and neither passed. This is fine, but I think if the outcome were different then it would have been a significant blemish on an otherwise excellent metagame. I want to highlight Torn-t in particular because this is another mon similar to Moon's situation where it was legal in current gen OU while being banned in National Dex. Viability in SV OU or lack of viability in NatDex Ubers doesn't matter here if we understand the circumstances around why these tiers are different from each other and why that makes Moon perform differently in turn, similar to Torn-t.

Semi-sun with Mega Zard-Y is quite viable right now given how this team archetype has just constantly received new toys to play with. Gouging Fire and Raging Bolt of course are very good in their own right, but semi-sun got Alomomola too which is a fantastic defensive backbone with slow momentum to set up weather repeatedly over the course of a game. I think the important takeaway from all this is that Roaring Moon has an entire new team structure it can take advantage of that doesn't even exist in SV OU. Zard-Y + sun abusers, while still a bit of a matchup fish, is entirely uncomparable to heat rock Torkoal in its level of consistency. These teams actually have a surprising amount of flexibility too with options like Iron Treads and synth Kart fitting nicely when they would otherwise be uncommon in the meta. I think these teams are great, I'm glad they're in the meta, and I also don't think we should be throwing sun-boosted choice band Roaring Moon into the mix.

I talked about sun stuff first cause it's just cool to me and I love using Zard-Y, but I think most people recognize that booster energy Moon is the biggest issue here. I'm gonna skip the walls of damage calcs given that other posts in this thread covered it already. The tldr is that Moon has very little in the way of actual defensive answers. Tera flying booster energy acro 2hkos so much of the tier and has perfect coverage alongside dark and ground. Even if you drop the ground move though the coverage is still absurd and you get the flexibility of fitting taunt to mess with wisp Skeledirge, Dondozo, iron defense Corviknight/Skarm, toxic Alomomola, and pretty much everything else that would even try to check you. Dark + flying misses on coverage for Mega Diancie, Mega Mawile, Mega Tyranitar, Tapu Koko, and that's it. It is seriously phenomenal coverage even without EQ. Only one of these megas can be present on any given team and none have any form of recovery whatsoever making them prone to chip damage, especially from hazards. Tapu Koko straight up takes 75% from +1 booster energy tera acro and has a 12.5% chance to kill Moon back with tbolt which is almost laughable. Diancie loses 1v1 if it doesn't have diamond storm. None of this mentioning that screens lets Roaring Moon win almost all of these 1v1s anyway. The only kind of viable scarfer that outspeeds Moon is Meowscarada, booster Val is slower, booster Iron Boulder has to win a 50/50 with tera while also getting DD'd on a second time and losing to pretty much every other tera type that isn't flying/steel. "Reliable" revenge killing for Moon seems like it relies more on priority or sacking your entire Lando-T plus 50-75% HP on the mon you revenge with after getting intimidate off.

Sure, you could lose to a random tera steel/fairy/poison etc Roaring Moon, but this mon doesn't even need to be unpredictable to be as good as it is. It has one extremely good set and several more niche variations that are all equally good into the right matchup as well as a choice set that punches holes in everything. Kinda reminds me of another banned dragon... *wink wink Dragapult wink wink*

Yea please don't unban Roaring Moon. I'm glad we got to test it, but we're better off without it. Don't let a few fun DD sweeps on ladder cloud your judgement about how much more the meta will suck if this thing sticks around.
 

hidin

What a kind young man
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Oh hey, a Pokemon's being suspected down here, again! If you want my opinion on what can potentially come:

We should unban Roaring Moon.

Like, seriously. We should seriously consider unbanning Roaring Moon, even with how controversial it is to suspect down a Pokemon that's been banned since the first week of the tier's existence; albeit it was when wrong mechanics around, but the point still stands. In my opinion, I think Roaring Moon is neither broken, detrimental to the health and future of National Dex, and any other argument that relates to how balanced it is. It is a great Pokemon without a doubt, amazing even, but it's definitely not something that's over the edge. I'll get to explaining things thoroughly on why I think Roaring Moon should be unbanned, and hopefully after you read this post you feel the same way I do.

A table of contents can be found here:
I. Is Roaring Moon balanced?
II. How do I beat Roaring Moon?
III. Does Roaring Moon worsen any existing problems in National Dex?
IV. Will freeing Roaring Moon negatively effect the future?
V. How about any positives? What does it contribute?
VI. Conclusion
Now with that out the way, here's why I think Roaring Moon should be unbanned.

I. Is Roaring Moon balanced?

Yes; Roaring Moon's whole shtick with Dragon Dance sets and Choice Band sets are just good breakers, if anything an annoyance at the most. No world does Roaring Moon 6-0 a good team in National Dex off of preview, and if that happens it is either a playing issue or a building issue. We have plenty of counterplay in the builder and during play, but that's not the topic here; let's go into how Roaring Moon is actually fine in the metagame.

- It is not as unbeatable as it is made out to be. Roaring Moon is a Pokemon that impacts games as any other good breaker does, but it doesn't do it in a way which is unhealthy. The opportunities Roaring Moon needs in order to get in and do what it wants to do is quite more difficult compared to past legal Pokemon like Kingambit and Dragapult; this is due to how its sweeping opportunities are more limited because of how it's easier to force out and how its counterplay is more reliable into it. Offensive builds can often prevent Roaring Moon from seeing the light of day when it tries to do something due to how prone it is to strong hits from the likes of heavy hitters and as such being forced out when it tries to set up. Choice Band sets will pose a big threat to the builds however, though once you realize it is Choice locked you will be able to exploit it with your teammates and other methods of beating standard offensive threats that you should generally have on your team, such as hazard damage, priority and revenge killing, etc. Yes, it's strong with just a Booster Energy boost and definitely something to keep an eye on after a Dragon Dance, with Choice Bands sets being just as good as well, but once you have realized this you can absolutely use this to your advantage during the course of a game. Shoehorning Roaring Moon from making progress and winning games isn't a monumental task, you can use the fact that most of the time they will be both burning a Tera and setting up a Dragon Dance infront of something like your Tapu Lele or your Zamazenta, or when it clicks a Choice Band Knock Off into your Landorus-T or your Ferrothorn. Playing around Roaring Moon is definitely a possibility, but what about its sets in general?

- Dragon Dance + Taunt and Dragon Dance + Earthquake are not that variable and once you discover which move its using, this is a good gain for you over the course of a game. Dragon Dance + Taunt is what performs best into defensive builds, and in my opinion the best set it can be using in general, but with that in mind you have to remember the ways fat teams usually function: constant hazard chip or passive damage with Pokemon that can stave offensive threats off as well. Roaring Moon does not invalidate this playstyle by just running Taunt, if anything all it does is prevent you from being staved off by Pokemon like Skarmory, Dondozo, Ting-Lu, and more, while worsening your offense matchup with the lack of Earthquake which is very good into common offensive builds due to Ground being an amazing offensive type; it even makes you worse into defensive Pokemon commonly seen on fatter teams like Garganacl and Mega Tyranitar. Earthquake solves these problems, but without Taunt you are obviously way more exploitable to bulky and offensive teams alike and your sweep with either be a little inconvenience or cause a not ideal trade with a Pokemon the most. What can be concerning is how it can break through Pokemon for its other teammates to sweep, but you can definitely apply this term to existing physical Pokemon in the metagame who can accomplish the same objective just as well as Roaring Moon can; wouldn't Pokemon like Ogerpon-Wellspring, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Landorus-Therian, and even other niche options like Mega Mawile or Pokemon that can cripple defensive Pokemon like Mega Scizor do the job for other offensive threats like themselves? The answer is pretty clear when you realize how Roaring Moon is just a sweeper that is added to that whole list, and it doesn't even exacerbate any issues teams would have against that method.

- Choice Band sets can be more concerning due to the immediate power it possesses with a locked STAB Knock Off and even having U-turn to pivot around its checks; these two traits are already issues that is has. Being locked into a move is and will always be a downside to any balanced breaker regardless of the power, and Roaring Moon is affected by this due to Knock Off have viable absorbers and punishers, Outrage being Outrage and being very easy to revenge kill with the Steel- or Fairy-type you are using on your team (Which you should make sure you have one, the other, or both), and U-turn not immediately breaking through your checks as fast though letting your teammates do it for you, which is obviously good but when you realize you have made your own teammate be put at risk to break through something for you and on top of that the potential there is for you to just not be able to click that well into teams can definitely be a concern at times. Earthquake is a slight exception as its a good and strong psuedo-STAB attack that can do well into a good amount of Pokemon, but is definitely out-playable just like any other strong Earthquake user in the tier. Immediate power for Roaring Moon definitely sounds absurd on paper, but in reality it is something that doesn't require too much dedication in order to beat it.

Some replays of what I'm saying can be found here for actual evidence: https://pastebin.com/sDkfnXCp

With all of that said, what about the Pokemon in question that can check Roaring Moon? Is there even anything available that can reliably do so?
...Yes, there is absolutely counterplay to it, and there's a lot more than what you probably have in your head. Here's your options:

II. How do I beat Roaring Moon?

Now we go to the part about what counterplay is available. As for every Pokemon that is down here, there's a good or decent amount (at the least) of counterplay against it. While Roaring Moon seems very annoying to check and counter due to what it can do on paper with its strength, here are some options that can actually deal with it for each viable set it uses. Niche stuff will be occasionally mentioned, but nothing too much.

:sv/roaring-moon:
Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying / Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Taunt / Earthquake

The peak set, the main appetizer, and the main set that people often site for Roaring Moon being detrimental to the metagame due to its sweeping potential. Hopefully with all that was said above and with the replays provided the whole idea of that has been watered down in your mind, but here is what can deal with this set to further assert that Roaring Moon counterplay exists:

Offensive
Dragon Dance + Taunt (+0/+0/+1.3x) - :archaludon: :diancie-mega: :dragonite: :garchomp: :gouging-fire: :iron-boulder: :iron-hands: :iron-valiant:* :landorus-therian: :lopunny-mega: :mawile-mega: :meowscarada: :ogerpon-cornerstone:* :raging-bolt: :scizor-mega: :tapu-koko: :tapu-lele:* :tyranitar-mega: :weavile: :zamazenta:
Dragon Dance + Earthquake (+0/+0/+1.3x) - :dragonite: :garchomp: :gouging-fire: :iron-boulder: :iron-valiant:* :landorus-therian: :lopunny-mega: :meowscarada: :ogerpon-cornerstone:* :scizor-mega: :tapu-koko: :tapu-lele:* :weavile: :zamazenta:
Setting Specific - (+0/+0/+1.3x) :barraskewda: :hawlucha:


Dragon Dance + Taunt (+1/+1/+1.3x) - :archaludon: :diancie-mega: :dragonite: :garchomp: :gouging-fire: :iron-boulder: :iron-hands: :landorus-therian: :mawile-mega::meowscarada:* :ogerpon-cornerstone:* :raging-bolt: :scizor-mega: :tapu-koko: :tyranitar-mega: :zamazenta:
Dragon Dance + Earthquake (+1/+1/+1.3x) - :dragonite: :garchomp: :iron-boulder: :landorus-therian::meowscarada:* :ogerpon-cornerstone:* :scizor-mega: :zamazenta:
Setting Specific - (+1/+1/+1.3x) :barraskewda: :hawlucha:

* = A stat modification is needed in order to check.

Defensive

Dragon Dance + Taunt (+0/+0/+1.3x) - :corviknight: :dondozo: :ferrothorn: :garganacl: :landorus-therian: :moltres: :scizor-mega: :ting-lu: :toxapex: :tyranitar-mega: :zapdos:
Dragon Dance + Earthquake (+0/+0/+1.3x) - :alomomola: :corviknight: :clefable: :dondozo: :ferrothorn: :garganacl: :gliscor: :landorus-therian: :moltres: :scizor-mega: :skarmory: :skeledirge: :tapu-fini: :ting-lu: :toxapex: :tyranitar-mega: :zapdos:

Dragon Dance + Taunt (+1/+1/+1.3x) - :corviknight: :dondozo: :ferrothorn: :garganacl: :landorus-therian: :moltres: :scizor-mega: :ting-lu: :tyranitar-mega: :zapdos:
Dragon Dance + Earthquake (+1/+1/+1.3x) - :alomomola::corviknight: :clefable: :dondozo: :ferrothorn: :gliscor: :landorus-therian: :moltres: :skarmory: :skeledirge: :tapu-fini: :ting-lu:

All of these options factor in Tera for both Roaring Moon and the Pokemon listed; that is why you have Pokemon like Garganacl listed in the DD + Earthquake section, as it can win 1v1 with Tera involved. +2 is not mentioned as letting a Roaring Moon get up to +2 will obviously be disastrous just like any other potent physical set up sweeper in the tier at the moment, and it's a little overboard.

Usually Roaring Moon would be able to beat these on paper, such as Clefable, Gliscor, Zapdos, etc. But due to other things that actually happen in the course of a game such as status affliction, they are listed here still due to the possibilities of crippling Roaring Moon. The replays above too can show times where Roaring Moon actually falters infront of some of the Pokemon above.

:sv/roaring-moon:
Roaring Moon @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Outrage
- Earthquake

Now we have Roaring Moon but it is even more immediately threatening than before; counterplay is of course going to be a little smaller but remember all of the flaws listed above and shown in the replays as well. Here's what you can use to beat Choice Band Roaring Moon:

Offensive
:darkrai::dragonite: :great-tusk::iron-boulder: :iron-hands: :iron-valiant:* :kartana*::landorus-therian: :lopunny-mega: :mawile-mega: :meowscarada: :scizor-mega: :tapu-koko: :tapu-lele:* :urshifu-rapid-strike::weavile: :zamazenta:
Setting Specific - :barraskewda::hawlucha::swampert-mega:


Defensive
:alomomola: :Clefable::corviknight::dondozo: :ferrothorn: :great-tusk: :landorus-therian: :moltres: :scizor-mega: :skarmory: :tangrowth: :tapu-fini: :ting-lu: :toxapex: :zapdos:

As always Tera is a factor here both for Roaring Moon and the Pokemon listed, but there's nothing too out of line here. Choice Band is quite strong and uses different coverage, as such, Pokemon like Raging Bolt offensively and Gliscor defensively cannot check it well, along with some other Pokemon that were in the Dragon Dance section. A lot of replays showed Choice Band Roaring Moon having issues with clicking buttons, which you can view above.


What should you take away from this? Roaring Moon has a good amount of counterplay while also not causing anything restrictive in the builder because of the options you have to deal with it. On paper I know it looks insane, but in reality and with some more thinking below the surface, there is plenty of counterplay to this Pokemon, and it is not as barren as people who are pro-ban think. With all of the counterplay and what-beats-what discussion out of the way, time for the important questions.

I am not covering Jaw Lock sets as they are both niche and often are quite fishy, you will often have limited success with it against offensive teams but some moderate success against fatter teams; nothing too notable though. Most of the Pokemon above work against Jaw Lock anyways.

III. Does Roaring Moon worsen any existing problem in National Dex?

In a vacuum, no.

Roaring Moon, as I said above, is another breaker in the tier that you will have to account for, but not in the way where it will be overbearing. Do we need more breakers in the metagame where things are allegedly "volatile"? When it comes to what Roaring Moon does for National Dex, I think having another breaker would definitely increase some skill expression and help against team styles like fat and stall while also being a Pokemon that can prey on frail offenses, both of which can cause some more metagame development, and, as crazy as it sounds, some adaptation. We really do not have any more problems that are truly worsened by Roaring Moon dropping down to the tier, there is enough counterplay and methods of beating it in general and natural building that can do well into it that makes it something that is okay. No problems are truly made worse by Roaring Moon, not in the builder, not in play, not really anywhere. It is just another Pokemon you will have to keep in mind like any other good Pokemon at the moment. Don't be so afraid for a new change like this, as it honestly will not hurt us.

Keeping an Uber where it came from is another argument, but a pretty damn bad one. Ubers is just a label for all Pokemon that are not legal in OU, do you think that just because it has that label, even after being surveyed on and talked about the community since the day it has been banned, is something that we should handle so hastily and so impertinently? In my opinion I think that whole entire take is just not a valid or good one; it's being tested for a reason, and overall I think the reason is quite correct. However, what could the future be like if we actually allow it? Will it degrade and turn into a whole Mega Metagross situation like in Generation 8? Or will it end up as something that will be hated on at first but slowly simmer down over time?

IV. Will freeing Roaring Moon negatively effect the future?

Now this is a good question. It's something that is honestly a little unpredictable but can be weirdly defined, but we're going to have to dive into some hypotheticals. After we hypothetically free Roaring Moon, there are a few possibilities of what can happen to the tier in the future. There is either a future where some distaste of the option is found all over the community but eventually simmers down upon realizing that Roaring Moon is now legal in the tier, a future where a lot of distaste is shown and policy systems are reviewed because of Roaring Moon, or where people who simply voted Ban are shocked and people who voted Unban are not. Out of all of these three possibilities, the third one is the most realistic as it is always been this way with every suspect this generation, besides Tera but you already know about Tera if you play this tier. Unlike Mega Metagross last generation, a Pokemon that got suspected and stayed with a large amount of outcry, Roaring Moon is the near opposite of this because of the support the community has given it. There is no net negative for the future if we free Roaring Moon in the tier, and there will likely be nothing that we would have to backtrack on once it is released. It'll be okay. To show some more reasons on why it would be okay, here's what Roaring Moon contributes and gives to the tier:

V. How about any positives? What does it contribute?

Roaring Moon firstly gives us a fast and strong breaker that can perform well in general, and excellent against builds where people forget a Dark-type resist, which is something that they should be punished for anyway. Knock Off in general is an amazing move, and while it might be everywhere and it can be annoying, you have to remember that Knock Off makes so much progress for you and your team that it outweighs the negatives of the move; being rewarded from knocking off Pokemon and chipping them for you to win a game is always something that is good but must be earned as well. When it comes to its defensive traits, the bulk it has is amazing for an offensive Pokemon and its typing lets it deal with some other stong Pokemon like Ogerpon-W and Mega Charizard Y, while also having a great speed tier and good strength to revenge kill threats like Raging Bolt, Volcarona, and the aforementioned Pokemon that was mentioned with its bulk. We could use a Pokemon like Roaring Moon in the tier right now, and I think that now was the perfect time to suspect it, any other time would definitely be worse as the metagame was actually volatile. What Roaring Moon provides to us is something that we should respect and deal with at the end of the day, but of course, not in a extreme way. It is not as bad as you think.

VI. Conclusion
So what's this all about? Did you skip down here to just get a short version? Either way, here is your answer: Roaring Moon is not an overbearing Pokemon in National Dex, counterplay exists and is viable, it often is quite easier to play around during a game, we don't gain anything negative by dropping it in the tier and we even get a little positive things out of it as well. It is not as broken as it is made out to be, nothing is exacerbated by it dropping, and as I said in the last paragraph I am so glad that we finally suspected it, and at a perfect time too. Roaring Moon has been locked up for way too long and it's time for it to come back where it can belong.

T
hank you for reading all of this, I really don't think I've ever typed this much on forums before. Remember to get your reqs and vote whatever you want to vote about Roaring Moon. Personally, I was pro-ban at first. But after I opened my eyes and realized what this Pokemon truly brings to the tier, I am confidently pro-unban, and hopefully you guys feel the same.

1708147378449.png

Now that you're here, did you view the replays in the link in the first paragaph?
 
Last edited:

seth

the mint
is a Tiering Contributor
Going to be giving my own two cents on the above post, seeing as my previous post was removed for no good reason, so let's just jump into it, why don't we?

The above argument suggests that Roaring Moon is not as overwhelmingly powerful as some perceive it to be. It points out that while it can be a strong breaker, it's manageable with proper play and team building. However, the fact that Roaring Moon may not always 6-0 a good team off preview doesn't necessarily mean it's balanced. Its potential to heavily swing the momentum of a game with its sweeping capabilities still warrants scrutiny, especially considering its versatility with several different sets. Hidin's argument outlines various strategies and specific Pokémon that can counter or check Roaring Moon effectively. While this demonstrates that counterplay exists, it doesn't address the potential restrictiveness this imposes on team building. Teams may feel compelled to include specific checks for Roaring Moon, limiting diversity and creativity in team composition. Additionally, relying on specific Pokémon to counter Roaring Moon can lead to predictability, allowing skilled opponents to exploit weaknesses. His argument also suggests that Roaring Moon wouldn't exacerbate existing problems in the metagame and could potentially contribute positively by providing additional diversity and strategic depth. However, introducing Roaring Moon could inadvertently centralize the metagame around strategies to counter it, potentially stifling innovation and diversity. Additionally, while Roaring Moon may not directly worsen existing issues, its presence could indirectly amplify certain playstyles or strategies, potentially skewing the balance of the metagame over time. The argument speculates on the potential long-term effects of unbanning Roaring Moon, suggesting that its reintroduction could lead to positive developments in the metagame without significant drawbacks. However, predicting the future impact of a Pokémon's unbanning is inherently uncertain, and it's essential to consider the potential risks and consequences carefully. Introducing Roaring Moon could disrupt the metagame in unpredictable ways, and any potential benefits must be weighed against the potential for negative consequences.


In conclusion, while the argument presents a thorough case for unbanning Roaring Moon, it's important to critically evaluate the potential implications and risks associated with reintroducing such a powerful and versatile Pokémon into the Generation 9 National Dex metagame. Balancing the desire for diversity and strategic depth with concerns about centralization, predictability, and metagame health is essential in making an informed decision about the status of Roaring Moon in competitive play. Thank you for reading.

- Signed, Harry B.
 

adem

her
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mf wrote a whole short story

- It is not as unbeatable as it is made out to be. Roaring Moon is a Pokemon that impacts games as any other good breaker does, but it doesn't do it in a way which is unhealthy. The opportunities Roaring Moon needs in order to get in and do what it wants to do is quite more difficult compared to past legal Pokemon like Kingambit and Dragapult
im highlighting this specific point mentioned in the introduction, and we’ll get back to it later.

lets look at your big wall of mons

Offensive
Dragon Dance + Taunt (+0/+0/+1.3x) - :archaludon: :diancie-mega: :dragonite: :garchomp: :gouging-fire: :iron-boulder: :iron-hands: :iron-valiant:* :landorus-therian: :lopunny-mega: :mawile-mega: :meowscarada: :ogerpon-cornerstone:* :raging-bolt: :scizor-mega: :tapu-koko: :tapu-lele:* :tyranitar-mega: :weavile: :zamazenta:
Dragon Dance + Earthquake (+0/+0/+1.3x) - :dragonite: :garchomp: :gouging-fire: :iron-boulder: :iron-valiant:* :landorus-therian: :lopunny-mega: :meowscarada: :ogerpon-cornerstone:* :scizor-mega: :tapu-koko: :tapu-lele:* :weavile: :zamazenta:
Setting Specific - (+0/+0/+1.3x) :barraskewda: :hawlucha:
* = A stat modification is needed in order to check.
First of all, this is an extremely misleading diagram, especially when you dont mention that half of these require specific sets (Lando here is only referring to Scarf Lando, normal sets become fodder for Taunt and if they arent Toxic then fodder for Earthquake too. Why is this even relevant, point being it sets up on most mons in the tier (including a good bit from this list which you dont cover), and most of the time it will manage to set up. You also dont really account Tera (for simplicities sake ill use Flying here, but Steel is also a valid option does does well into some of these while swapping some matchups) into any of these, like take say Iron Valiant, you list here as an offensive CPlay to it at +0, lets see:

252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 145-172 (41.3 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 184-218 (52.4 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 217-256 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 137-162 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 122-144 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 68-81 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 274-324 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (lol)
Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. Roaring Moon: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Ummmm, this looks like a free Dragon Dance, or two for some booster Iron Valiant sets, and looks like free setup on all of Valiants’s coverage options, and can even setup on Moon. Ignoring Tera for a second, you are looking at this from an extremely close-minded perspective, even if Valiant clicks any of its coverage options its some free DDs, and hell it can literally even set up on STABs with Tera? You cannot just list down a Mon as preventing it from setting up / an offensive check with no actual explanation or context. The only way this prevents set up is if you get the turns right twice, and you use up tera to kill. If not you wasted your IVal.

This same argument goes with like half the mons on each list, leading to big bold asterisks. Half of these mons also need to burn Tera, or be specific sets just to beat it, like say Zama.

Lets look at another interesting statistic, how many of these mons are B tier and below. I specifically chose B because i feel thats about the pinnacle of mediocrity in this tier, or mons that are extremely playstyle specific. Archuladon, Hands, Meow, Cornerstone, Hawlucha, Barraskewda; which is roughly a quarter of the mons you mentioned.

Both Archuladon and Barraskewda are both only rain specific mons, and im still quite confused about this explanation. Moon will have quite a few of set-up opportunities vs rain if it is Taunt, Pelliper, Depeding on the Ferro set / Moon Tera then that, Zapdos, Torn, so why would it need to have to set-up on those? Im sure any semi-competent player can at least garner one free turn for a mon that they think wins in that matchup?

If Meow has clicks any other move prior to Axel, it does not deal enough damage to Moon to actually prevent a set-up turn, or if its scarf and locked into something else.

Regardless of this, all of these mons mentioned are extremely fringe / playstyle specific mons that you would be lucky to see in one in 10 games, and this alongside half of the mons having a big bold asterisk alongside it (due to set specifity / condition specifity), as well as just the consideration of Tera as a mechanic (Just flying, if it was Steel this would be too much lol)

That narrows it down to like realistically roughly 5 healthy mons with specific sets that can prevent a Moon from setting up, assuming neutral resources on either side. Id be happy to go into the specifics of every single mon on discord, but I wont flood my post here with that.

Let me revert back to the first point for a second, how many of these also apply to Pult? I think nearly all prevent it from setting up at the gery least and beat it at +0. Honestly even Gambit lol, with some switches, but Pult was the better comparison here out of the two. I dont see how much different the opportunities are between Pult and Gambit here, as realistically they both have a huge overlap in the examples, with some slight mons changes and “hard checks” changes. Would be happy to talk about this on discord as well, since this was an interesting point you brought up,

Dragon Dance + Taunt (+1/+1/+1.3x) - :archaludon: :diancie-mega: :dragonite: :garchomp: :gouging-fire: :iron-boulder: :iron-hands: :landorus-therian: :mawile-mega::meowscarada:* :ogerpon-cornerstone:* :raging-bolt: :scizor-mega: :tapu-koko: :tyranitar-mega: :zamazenta:
Dragon Dance + Earthquake (+1/+1/+1.3x) - :dragonite: :garchomp: :iron-boulder: :landorus-therian::meowscarada:* :ogerpon-cornerstone:* :scizor-mega: :zamazenta:
Setting Specific - (+1/+1/+1.3x) :barraskewda: :hawlucha:
Now this is where I had hoped the real fun started. Let me first reiterate, that none of this again includes any consideration of Tera whatsoever, nor any specificity or context? Like just the moment I click the button half of these either become 5050s or dont check it at all lol. I want to get specifically into MZor in this one, since everyone likes bringing this up and I am confused because either I am clinically blind or no one else who thinks this mon is balanced can do math better than me, which seems concerning with how bad my math is.

Standard Defensive Dex Spread
0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 123-145 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 112+ Def Scizor-Mega: 229-271 (66.7 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 112+ Def Scizor-Mega: 153-181 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is an extremely PhysDef inclined MZor spread, and honestly its already a lot considering you get much worse at checking Lele and Valiant the more you go, but even then it…loses? Moon needs to have taken 20-35% chip damage prior for this to beat, and MZor has to have taken less than about that same benchmark to beat it. Lets also add some teensy little context here, MZor is a defensive pivot that has to check another mainstay on HO, being IVal, which generally forces chip on it easily and can even beat it if its worn down and has tera. Rocks are also very easy to get up on most teams, and on HO most of the time your Pokemon are getting in through doubles or via sacks, so they wont struggle with chip, while playing against HO is generally a reactive sequence, where doubles and hard switches are required, especially on a mon like Mega Zor (who also has no passive recovery mind you).

Is this not an incredibly unrealistic scenario for the MZor user? Sounds to me like most of the time Moon is beating Zor.

Someone I recall also mentioned Offensive Mega Scizor, and that one is even funnier.

252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 160-189 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Scizor-Mega: 274-324 (88.1 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Lol.

Half the mons here require specific sets and/or require the mon to have Teraed or have not Teraed (and wont), if not they lose this. Some also need to be specific sets with specific moves, some need to not have taken any prior chip damage. Just like you like to say, “in practice”, in practice there are a bunch of other factors to go in, like your dnite or chomp being chipped by volc, your mzor took a spike, your hands had to deal with boulder earlier etc. So many realistic factors that go into dealing with moon even at +1 that cant be explained with just a couple of pictures of mons that you say checks with 0 context.

Defensive

Dragon Dance + Taunt (+0/+0/+1.3x) - :corviknight: :dondozo: :ferrothorn: :garganacl: :landorus-therian: :moltres: :scizor-mega: :ting-lu: :toxapex: :tyranitar-mega: :zapdos:
Dragon Dance + Earthquake (+0/+0/+1.3x) - :alomomola: :corviknight: :clefable: :dondozo: :ferrothorn: :garganacl: :gliscor: :landorus-therian: :moltres: :scizor-mega: :skarmory: :skeledirge: :tapu-fini: :ting-lu: :toxapex: :tyranitar-mega: :zapdos:

Dragon Dance + Taunt (+1/+1/+1.3x) - :corviknight: :dondozo: :ferrothorn: :garganacl: :landorus-therian: :moltres: :scizor-mega: :ting-lu: :tyranitar-mega: :zapdos:
Dragon Dance + Earthquake (+1/+1/+1.3x) - :alomomola::corviknight: :clefable: :dondozo: :ferrothorn: :gliscor: :landorus-therian: :moltres: :skarmory: :skeledirge: :tapu-fini: :ting-lu:
This one has to be another joke one lol. What in the world is half of these mons listed doing against taunt moon?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2063077237 (Corviknight is IDBP with Brave Bird, every other set just gets bopped, and corv has to win the 5050 and hope its not something like tera steel lol. Corv also has to be at full kek, vs a HO team with rocks that sounds impossible)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2063080293 Hurricane Zapdos. Best it does is if it hits and chips it, any other set does let, maybe it can get a static para? but like lol otherwise this is illogical. Same goes with molt but that one sucks more.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2063081767 Standard PhysDef Toxapex. Has to win multiple 5050s, and have Scald and get lucky with burns to even have a chance at beating it?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2063084336-y5izcq8vzyhgg6ws5qytgw76a14gqmepw Normal Ting. Assuming you get the first 5050 right and your Ting is at full, best you do is 75% from the two ruins, then your ting dies. Depending on if your Ting has taken any chip damage or not, Moon might not even need to tera:

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 202-238 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Im not going to go into every one of these mons because I already have prior for some of them + some of them are just logical. Its really just Mega Tyranitar, Body Press + Liquidation Dondonzo, Physdef Ferrothorn with Gyro, and hoping for a status proc. Or maybe your using PhysDef Garg??? So you get 2 turns with salt cure instead of one.

I dont want to get into Band much, but every single one of them there that doesnt resist Dark needs an asterisk on there, because they are 2hkoed by Tera Dark Dark Stab otherwise lol. And because IDT Band is that good anyways.


No problems are truly made worse by Roaring Moon, not in the builder, not in play, not really anywhere. It is just another Pokemon you will have to keep in mind like any other good Pokemon at the moment. Don't be so afraid for a new change like this, as it honestly will not hurt us.
I think the issue that we had with Tera flipping matchups and making things too hard to handle that we solved by banning all the broken breakers will arise once again with moon, because it literally is the pinnacle of this case lol. Being a Dark Type that can break past Fightings, has amazing natural bulk and enough utility to render defensive “checks” useless is a pretty big problem.

IV. Will freeing Roaring Moon negatively effect the future?

Now this is a good question. It's something that is honestly a little unpredictable but can be weirdly defined, but we're going to have to dive into some hypotheticals. After we hypothetically free Roaring Moon, there are a few possibilities of what can happen to the tier in the future. There is either a future where some distaste of the option is found all over the community but eventually simmers down upon realizing that Roaring Moon is now legal in the tier, a future where a lot of distaste is shown and policy systems are reviewed because of Roaring Moon, or where people who simply voted Ban are shocked and people who voted Unban are not. Out of all of these three possibilities, the third one is the most realistic as it is always been this way with every suspect this generation, besides Tera but you already know about Tera if you play this tier. Unlike Mega Metagross last generation, a Pokemon that got suspected and stayed with a large amount of outcry, Roaring Moon is the near opposite of this because of the support the community has given it. There is no net negative for the future if we free Roaring Moon in the tier, and there will likely be nothing that we would have to backtrack on once it is released. It'll be okay. To show some more reasons on why it would be okay, here's what Roaring Moon contributes and gives to the tier.
This has got to be the biggest nothingburger i have seen from this essay. 2 weeks is not a lot of time to determine how broken an unban is for a metagame, and especially considering the natdex ladder’s notoriety for not using the suspected mon at all, means it can be very hard to form a formulated opinion. there is barely any set exploration or any proper evidence of how the mon will function in the meta until its too late, with 90% of the suspect games being played with HO or stall, maybe like half of the testers, or even less even used the mon themselves lol, much less actually see it in the test. this mon can easily escalate to something extremely busted in the next few weeks, especially with ndwc around the corner, so saying that nothing can happen on it or no issues that it can bring is disingenuous and naive at best, incredibly stupid at worst. It would be incredibly hard bureaucratically to deal with this thing if it turns out to be broken and people agree it is, so please dont put this lightly lol.

Roaring Moon firstly gives us a fast and strong breaker that can perform well in general, and excellent against builds where people forget a Dark-type resist, which is something that they should be punished for anyway
l this take is extremely short-sighted when moon beats literally every single dark resist in the tier with DD 3a, and like 90% of them with DD Taunt lol.

So what's this all about? Did you skip down here to just get a short version? Either way, here is your answer: Roaring Moon is not an overbearing Pokemon in National Dex, counterplay exists and is viable, it often is quite easier to play around during a game, we don't gain anything negative by dropping it in the tier and we even get a little positive things out of it as well. It is not as broken as it is made out to be, nothing is exacerbated by it dropping, and as I said in the last paragraph I am so glad that we finally suspected it, and at a perfect time too. Roaring Moon has been locked up for way too long and it's time for it to come back where it can belong.
Counterplay exists but is limited, dependant on game state, dependant on set, dependant on its tera, dependant on if it has a DD or not, dependant on how willing you are to run B- tier pokemon, dependant on if you have tera or not. We gain an extremely powerful HO sweeper that limits builds and structures even more, and forces much more reactive teras just to try and deal with it, and more frustration when you deal with sets that defer from the standard but are still as efficient (ie tera steel, jaw lock sets etc). the positive we gain is so blown up its hilarious, all we get is literally just another dark type breaker / sweeper to think about, no one is overjoyed now that we have another half check to waterpon.

keep moon locked up, this mon is diabolical, you will regret it if you vote unban willingly

e: replays were all mostly addressed on discord, ping me if you want some explanation
 
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In all likelihood, I will be voting for Roaring Moon to remain banned.

The crux of my argument is that Roaring Moon (1) lacks sufficient counterplay in nearly every regard, forcing too much progress even into its perceived worst matchups, and (2) the risk-reward involved in preparing for and out-sequencing this pokemon are too heavily skewed in Moon’s favor to be considered balanced in this tier.

I. Potential Unban Arguments in Isolation

If there were no good arguments in favor of unbanning Moon, we would not have opted to retest it. With this in mind, I wanted to evaluate whether some of Moon’s potentially limiting factors actually held it back in practice. One compelling argument is Moon’s heavy reliance on Tera to achieve its greatest offensive heights, while equally creating setup opportunities for its most common sets. While Z-Move and Choice Band sets are each powerful in their own regard, they generally come with a greater opportunity cost to run, open up additional avenues for soft counterplay, and/or arguably have a lower ceiling as a result. Other sets with non-standard moves or Tera types (e.g. Tera Poison, Jaw Lock, etc.) trade overall consistency in exchange for situational luring potential, which can be somewhat matchup-dependent and rely on specific positioning. Additionally, while Moon undoubtedly lacks a wide pool of organic defensive counterplay in the tier, you could argue that defensive Tera is an important aspect of teambuilding in this metagame, which can help limit the amount of progress Moon can make.

Notwithstanding the points noted above, I believe this suspect has less to do with whether Moon can be contained, and more to do with how reasonable it is to contain it. Moon’s reliance on Tera means little if it often outright wins games by flipping the script in a single turn. Its set variation only compounds this problem given how threatening its most common DD+Taunt set can be, and very limited counterplay exists even after factoring in defensive Tera.

II. Insufficient Counterplay

Evaluating whether there is sufficient counterplay to any pokemon is not a zero-sum game, in which listing every potential check is evidence of counterplay within the tier. Put another way, we need to be looking at whether the sequences required to contain Roaring Moon’s progress are reasonably balanced in favor of both players, rather than adding up the total quantity and mere existence of options which can, under some circumstances, fit the definition of a “check” or “counter”.

Specific to Roaring Moon, you could make a reasonable Unban argument while still conceding that the pool of defensive counterplay is notably shallow. In terms of defined and/or dedicated “counters” to Roaring Moon, very few pokemon organically fit this definition prior to any defensive Tera. A counter is supposed to have the longevity to consistently withstand repeated attacks from Roaring Moon, while posing some type of impairing threat against it. Defensively, very few pokemon meet this standard at all, let alone on a reliable basis. This is largely due to the fact that for many of the pokemon with the greatest longevity in this tier, i.e. Dondozo, Alomomola, Corviknight, Skeledirge, Clefable, Gliscor, Skarmory, Toxapex, Garganacl, etc. nearly all are more often than not shut down by Taunt, beaten by defensive Tera, muscled through by Tera Flying Acrobatics without any boosts at all, or depend on very specific conditions to occur which cannot be reasonably or consistently expected. If a pokemon like Moon is able to at worst force a one-for-one trade against its best defensive checks like Dondozo and Garg, this is generally a sign that the pokemon is not balanced.

Moving from defensive counters to checks, and purely for the sake of argument, we can assume that pokemon like Mega Diancie, Mawile, Tyranitar, Iron Hands, Landorus-T, Roost Koko, Archaludon, etc. are at worst situational checks. This assumes, very gratuitously, that Moon is not running any coverage beyond Knock Off and Acrobatics, and that it does not have a favorable Tera type and or Choice Banded U-turn to click into any one of these pokemon. Even so, I think it is self evident that of the potential situational checks to Moon, almost none have any form of reliable (or any) recovery, they are clearly intended to be serving other purposes apart from checking Moon, and at most, they are capable of performing this task for one or two interactions (for most, only once). Realistically, I never encountered a situation where, as the Moon user, I attempted to sweep a team with any of these checks being discussed in this thread at full health, because several of the better situational-checks to Moon are intended to fill several other roles on teams apart from being pigeonholed into this single task. In summary, does defensive counterplay exist to Moon? Sure, but it is far from reasonable.

As for offensive counterplay, I have little to say because very little exists. Iron Boulder does the job more often than it does not. Dragonite with Multiscale still intact probably counts as well, as would Weavile (all three can lose to Tera Steel). Beyond this, you are left with support-specific speed control (i.e. Hawlucha, weather sweepers, Trick Room), Scarf Meowscarada (is this a set?), priority from Mega Scizor, Mawile and Lopunny which does not kill without considerable chip, and Thunderclap Raging Bolt (assuming Moon has already Terastallized). Every top-tier offensive threat imposes some degree of centralization on teambuilding, which is not always inherently a bad thing, but every team cannot be expected to run these specific tools.

III. Moon’s Risk-Reward is Unbalanced

As an extension of my argument above, the fact that moon lacks an abundance of defined counterplay is not, by itself, what pushes Moon over the edge for me. Plenty of pokemon lack dedicated defensive checks or counters (see: Hoopa-U, Mega Medicham, Mawile, etc.) but their progress can be otherwise contained due to some combination of other factors in practice which balances the risk-reward involved in using them.

I do not find this to be the case with Moon, even as someone with a very loose standard for what constitutes acceptable counterplay. Moon is a pokemon which, at worst, is able to force trades even against some of its best counterplay, and at best, can outright win games if given a single free turn. You might argue that most sweepers can achieve this if given the right opportunity, but the ease with which Moon specifically can create a single free turn either for itself via defensive Tera or Taunt, or through Screens support and pivoting from its teammates is far too easy to achieve in this metagame relative to the reward you reap for doing so. On the flip side, Moon has little difficulty shutting down and/or using most of the tier’s common pivots as setup fodder, which would otherwise be one way of safely bringing in what little offensive counterplay does exist while slowly chipping Moon down. All of this does not even factor in the constant guessing games which must be won by the opponent to avoid giving Moon a free opportunity to boost, while simultaneously trying to scout its set and coverage, chip it down enough to revenge kill it, and then save enough pieces for the rest of Moon’s team. Proper sequencing and pivoting your sweepers into a position where they can sweep is expressive of player skill, but Moon's penalty for failing to do this is simply making less progress, while Moon's opponent risks outright losing at any given time.

I also believe we have not even seen the greatest potential variation that Moon can provide in the limited time we have had to evaluate it in the tier. Nearly all of this post and most of the others in this thread only really consider Moon's most threatening DD+Tera Flying or Choice Band sets, because they are so outright threatening that you are forced into very linear sequences to respond to these sets alone. This only compounds the imbalance in the risk the opponent bears for making a single "wrong" move, given that you are generally forced to sequence against Moon as though it is running one of its common sets. There is no reliable way to deduce from team preview what Moon is likely running, and the process of figuring this out is well-beyond the metal gynmastics required to contain other sweepers in this tier.

IV. Conclusion

Everything is stoppable under the right circumstances, but Moon has far too much upside and exerts far too much pressure against nearly every archetype, and at every stage of a game. I see no need to delve into what Moon adds to the tier or whether the tier needs Moon, because these are subjective arguments which cannot outweigh the fact that we tier primarily according to objective standards, and Moon is objectively broken. This was the correct time to test Moon and I am glad we did, but I have personally seen enough to form an opinion and will likely be voting ban.
 

Oculars

IT RLY DO BE LIKE THAT SOMETIMES
is a Tiering Contributor
I've been swayed since my original post about moon and will now be voting do not unban. This mon offers a very low skill wincon for braindead flip turn chilly recption balances that can single handedly save their matchup vs offenses, and due to terastalization being broken offensive counterplay is legit a 50/50 at best. I dont care if it can taunt stall/fat teams those teams deserve to get taunted for running 1 attack sets, its the 3a and z move sets that make this mon broken and the fact that it can tera into several defensive typing to cheese past offensive counterplay. If it was slightly slower it might have been fine but 119 base speed is just slightly too fast for a dragon dancer this strong. I still havent struggled with it a lot but thats because im just better at fighting offense vs offense. My counterplay to it was still very limited and I was only winning against it cause I would out position my oponents and set up first.

Yeah its a strong HO mon and id enjoy using it myself on some nice grimmsnarl screens but knowing how this tier goes it will probably end up like waterpon where its super built for: oppresive in the builder but annoying to try and actually use in game due to everyone building for it with random garbage like alluring voice skeledirge or whatever people will come up with to handle moon if we unban it. I dont want to see a repeat of the waterpon situation where literally half the teams have like 3 different tera dragon mons just to check it while its rediculously annoying to actually use on offense for that very reason, hard to use cause every team is built to handle it while still causing the same ammount of strain in the builder as most broken mons just due to its presense.

TL:DR:


:sv/roaring-moon: - Send it back to ubers
:sv/cresselia: :sv/lunatone: - Cresselia and Lunatone Stonks up as the #1 and #2 moon pokemon again respectively
 

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